File on 4 “Paedophiles” Transcript 9th November 2004

Trigger Warning

This “File on 4 ” from Radio 4 in 2004 is about prostitution of children in Manchester and child rape by William Goad.

It does not seem to be available on Iplayer but the transcript is valuable. It is available here [1] or below

TRANSMISSION: Tuesday 9th November 2004 2000 – 2040
REPEAT: Sunday 14th November 2004 1700 – 1740
REPORTER: Allan Urry
EDITOR: David Ross
Transmission: Tuesday 9th November 2004
Repeat: Sunday 14th November 2004
Producer: Rob Cave
Reporter: Allan Urry
Editor: David Ross
RAY: I just thought we were staying over for the night, and I kind of gathered that he was going to rape me again, but I had no idea that other men were going to be there. I remember crying and I remember the pain, I remember the smells. Very difficult.
URRY: In the last few weeks some of the nation’s most dangerous sex offenders have been jailed for shocking abuse of young boys. Tonight we tell the inside story of the investigations which uncovered two of Britain’s most disturbing paedophile networks. We ask how these men were able to get away with their crimes for so long, and why so many others have escaped justice.
URRY: Manchester’s Gay village. Nightlife is thriving. It’s become a pick up area for both the gay and straight communities. But nearby there’s a
seedier trade – a few streets away, rent boys sell sex for money. There’s a stream of punters in cars picking up teenagers. The only other people around are from an
organisation called Lifeshare. It’s one of the few outreach schemes in the UK aimed at keeping in touch with young male sex workers. It’s run by Tez Clegg, who showed me around the red light area.
CLEGG: Well it looks pretty nice really. There’s a nice canal there, there’s some lovely new flats that have been built, there’s a hotel on the corner, there’s a nice little bar there where people go drinking, and right in the heart of it there’s a canal bridge, and that’s where a lot of the lads are working and where a lot of the punters will arrive to pick them up and meet them.
URRY: Have you been able to assess the numbers of young male prostitutes involved in the scene in Manchester?
CLEGG: In the whole scene that we’ve actually had contact with over the past twelve months there’s been thirty-five, and there are a lot more but not all of them engage with the service so, you know, we’re missing them. Some of them are reluctant to talk to us. But over the past year, yeah, we’ve met thirty-five that we know of.
URRY: It’s quite a dark area, quite dangerous I would imagine as well for some of the young men?
CLEGG: Yeah, it can be. I mean, there’s been three deaths down here over the past four years, you know. There’s been a fifteen year old killed, a seventeen year old killed.
URRY: Young boys?
CLEGG: Yeah.
URRY: In the sex trade?
CLEGG: Yeah.
FEMALE PROSTITUTE: I’m having a lovely hot chocolate.
URRY: Tez and his colleagues serve hot drinks from the back of their van. Some of the female prostitutes come for a chat, but Lifeshare is keeping a closer eye on the boys, about whom much less is known. People like 20 year old Scott, who told us he started when he was seventeen.
How did you get into this?
SCOTT: It were drugs and what-have-you and stuff like that, and my mum kicking me out and my mum and my dad getting divorced. Stuff like that. I could make £50 a night, I could make £150 a night, just depends on what night it is, if it’s weekend or during the week or whatever.
URRY: What are the sort of services that your clients are asking you to do?
SCOTT: Have sex with them, basically.
URRY: And how many times does that happen of an evening?
SCOTT: Like I say, it depends on what day of the week it is and stuff like that.
URRY: Say on a Saturday night then.
SCOTT: Could have about three, four people.
URRY: There’s a more organised element to the sex trade here. Some of the boys are controlled by pimps – people like Ray Hawthorne, who Scott used to work for.
SCOTT: I turned down here because I knew it’d help with money and stuff like that, and Ray, because I were on drugs at the time, Ray were like paying for the drugs and like taking out of my money what I’d earn in a night.
URRY: When you worked for him, how did the system operate?
SCOTT: I’d ring him, he’d pick me up, he’d arrange something with someone for me, he’d take me to the person, I’ll see them and then he’d drop me off. Blackburn, Crewe, Stockport, Wigan, all over the place.
URRY: All over the north west.
SCOTT: All over the north west, yes.
URRY: In September, forty year old Raymond Colin Hawthorne was jailed for seven years……. ……..
URRY: Here in Manchester’s rent boy district, there are questions about the freedom Raymond Hawthorne was given to operate as a pimp over such a lengthy period of time. Tez Clegg, who runs the outreach scheme for young male sex workers, says Hawthorne was a well-known figure here.
CLEGG: Yeah, you used to see him sat over on Tariff Street in a car with lads in the car and stuff like that. He’d never come to us, he’d never speak to us and we never really had any contact with him, but some of the lads that he was, you know, he had working for him, we knew them quite well.
URRY: The people that we’ve spoken to here tonight, they all seem to know him, he seems to be quite a well-known figure in this particular …
CLEGG: Yeah, he’s well-known on the whole scene, the whole male sex workers scene, yeah……….
URRY… ……… Sara Swann, who has researched child prostitution and advises government policy-makers, says local authorities often turn a blind eye to the problem.
SWANN: How the legislation is at the moment and how public attitudes are at the moment is it’s much easier to blame the young people, to somehow think it’s their fault, they’ve brought this abuse upon themselves, they’ve been using drugs or they’ve run away from home, they’re bad children, so that’s what’s happening to them. Rather than actually turn it round and realise, no, there are a lot of adults out there who are using children for their own sexual gratification, who are abusing these children, and that’s where the focus should be, and there are more pressing, visible priorities for police. And if no-one makes a complaint, I mean, if you’ve got caring parents who are ringing up, you know, if it was my son that went missing or your son, we would be making a big fuss. A lot of these children are living on the margins of society anyway and they are not seen, they are not visible, no-one is making a fuss about them, no-one is seeing what harm is being done to them, so no-one is investigating any crime. There needs to be a complaint from someone to instigate that process.
URRY: We wanted to ask Manchester’s Area Child Protection Committee why there appears to have been so little done to tackle the issue of teenage boys selling sex on the streets. It’s the body responsible for implementing government guidance to try to prevent the sexual exploitation of youngsters. But they refused to be interviewed or even to issue a statement. According to Tink Palmer, a former principal policy officer at the children’s charity Barnardos, Manchester’s failure to act is not untypical, and that’s an open invitation to child sex abusers.
PALMER: I think people tend to think in boxes, so for example, they think of a paedophile ring, they don’t actually connect it to children abuse or
prostitution. What they need to do is actually jump out of the boxes, both police and social services, and look at different ways of managing this issue.
URRY: Do you see direct links between the rent boy scene in any given city then and paedophilia?
PALMER: Definitely, definitely. I mean, we’ve had examples in Bristol over the past, we’ve had examples in Nottingham, and I think what is probably coming far more to the fore, it’s because of the ease of communication that we have with the new technology, that there are going to be increasingly more paedophile networks, networks of sexual abusers who are able to quickly contact other adults in that network.
URRY: But another case File on 4 has investigated also raises questions about whether police could do more to catch abusers.
NEWSREADER: A wealthy businessman, described in court as ‘Britain’s most prolific paedophile’ has been jailed for life for sexually abusing young boys over four decades. The judge at Plymouth Crown Court …
URRY: For forty years William Goad abused as many as three thousand young boys. He became such a voracious predator, he left no part of his home city of Plymouth untouched. His offending spread far beyond the West Country, to
URRY cont: the north of England and onwards to America and Thailand. He became a millionaire. His victims became addicted to drugs or alcohol, in jail or dead. The case is a graphic illustration of the cycle of destruction created by the failure to arrest and convict serial sex offenders.
URRY: Goad was a market trader, who grew his businesses in tandem with his career as a paedophile. They were right here in the city centre where we’re driving around now. They were ideal cover for attracting young boys with the offer of Saturday jobs or pocket money. He developed a network of properties around Plymouth where he abused. Some of Goad’s victims took police officers to those places to help build a picture of what had gone on and where. Detective Constable Shirley Thompson from the Devon and Cornwall force is with us on this car ride across the city to help us understand the scale of this man’s offending.
THOMPSON: We’re coming now into the Greenbank area, which is quite densely populated residential area.
URRY: They’re quite tightly-packed terraces, aren’t they? Narrow streets, quite high buildings in some ways, but packed very closely together.
THOMPSON: This here was another property, again it looks sort of Edwardian, Victorian type end terraced. That was a place where any boys, when they started having problems at home, these places were places where they would then be able to go and stay. The road that we just came off, another road of terraced houses, I think there was about three different addresses up there that were identified to us.
URRY: These little streets that we’re driving around became a rabbit warren of abuse then really, didn’t they?
THOMPSON: Yes. And you can see now we’re edging away from the city centre, so he was predominantly in the city centre. But one thing that has become apparent is the whole of Plymouth definitely and elsewhere, but definitely the whole of Plymouth and outskirts was his playground.
URRY: William Goad’s sexual offences were some of the worst imaginable. He liked young boys, eight or nine years old. He subjected them to brutal assaults, sometimes in broad daylight.
URRY: This feels like the dividing line in between the sort of built-up areas that we have to our right, where there’s lots and lots of houses a hundred or so metres away, and open countryside.
THOMPSON: As you can see, it is overlooked by houses up there, but there’s a lot of bushes and trees down here. And as we’re driving along, this small … as wide as a bridlepath, I suppose …
URRY: It’s quite a bumpy track, isn’t it?
THOMPSON: Yes. Well, Goad brought youngsters down here, one in particular. One of the times that he told us about, he was about nine years old at the time, and at the bottom in the corner there is a recess, and when the lad in question took us round there, he said, ‘That is where he used to keep Vaseline. He had a jar of Vaseline. He hadn’t brought it with him.’ He actually reached down into the wall and picked it out and used that. And he was raped and then left here in that situation to walk home on his own. There’s a pub just up the road and he actually went into this pub, not knowing who he could turn to, whether anybody could help him or anything, and sat and cried. A nine year old boy just left after being raped. He just left him on his own here with a £5 note in his mouth.
URRY: In his mouth?
THOMPSON: Yes. He shoved a £5 note in his mouth.
URRY: Goad was able to exercise complete control over his victims. So much so, he forced some of them to help him snatch others at random off the streets. One of them was a boy we’ve called Ray.
RAY: He decided that he wanted another boy. He was circling schools and areas around schools, and he stopped the van and he leaned over and he just looked at me and he said, ‘Right, you get out and get me a boy in the back of the effing van now.’ So I approached a couple of lads and they were like really, you know, mmm, and then there was this other kiddy, which I find even difficult to face today, many years later I still suffer the guilt of it. I got this kiddy back under the pretext of earning some money, £10, helping me load up these boxes into the back of the van. Goad came round and the lad was in the back and he pulled down the shutters and raped the poor boy.
URRY: How old would you think this child was?
RAY: Nine or ten. He wasn’t very old. Hair was very similar to me, blond hair. I can’t remember if he had blue eyes or not. I can put my hands on my heart and I still want to say sorry to that kiddy if he’s ever listening out there. I can put my hands on my heart and say, you know, I didn’t mean that to happen to him, but I was in total fear. The second time that he came and I was made to do this, I said no, which cost me quite a big beating and he raped me again.
URRY: It’s little wonder that the behaviour of Goad’s victims changed dramatically. Most have criminal records. Detective Constable John Livingstone compiled profiles based on those records. They showed a pattern of offending starting within a year after the abuse.
LIVINGSTONE: We actually started putting it on paper and looking at this victim profile, it was virtually down to the year, almost 90% all of the victims, and that was right across the board, with one little glitch of one of the victims who had a small shoplifting offence as a small child.
URRY: Some of them are Devon and Cornwall Police’s target offenders.
LIVINGSTONE: Yes. I mean, we have what they call target criminals. These are the criminals where there is intelligence to say that they are regular criminals committing crimes throughout the area. It’s quite amazing that a large percentage of those type of criminals are victims of Goad. It’s their way of dealing with it.
URRY: Although he’s the only one who’s been jailed,
File on 4 has discovered that Britain’s most prolific paedophile wasn’t acting alone. Goad was part of a network of child sex offenders, stretching across the UK. There’s some evidence to suggest it may be an international ring. One of his victims, Ray, says he was forced to have sex with other men at Goad’s instigation.
RAY: When he took, took me away on a trip to Manchester, I was taken to a big house where there was other men there.
URRY: How many other men?
RAY: On this particular occasion, five.
URRY: And did they all seem to know Goad?
RAY: Yes. They all knew Goad, they all knew Billy, and there was always alcohol and they made you drink, they poured alcohol, which I can’t drink scotch to this day. Even the smell of it turns my stomach. I just thought we were staying over for the night and I kind of gathered that he was going to rape me again, but I had no idea that other men were going to be there.
URRY: But all those other men sexually abused you, didn’t they?
RAY: Yes. Laughing and joking. I remember crying. I remember the pain, I remember the smells. Very difficult, very difficult. So yeah, a very painful part of my life.
URRY: Afterwards, Ray was driven back to Plymouth and, on a winter’s evening, left to find his own way home to his adoptive parents’ house.
RAY: I took a short cut across the railway lines and apparently I passed out on the actual main lines of Plymouth to London, and it was only by chance ….
URRY: Railway line?
RAY: A railway line, yes, a main one, it runs in and out of Plymouth to London, Bristol, all over.
URRY: Was this because you had been filled up with whisky?
RAY: I’d been filled up with whisky and I’d been badly raped. Just trying to get home really quickly into my little room, into my sanctuary, and through that drunken stupidness I passed out literally on the railway lines and someone saw this and reported something being on the line, and I was found by the police.
URRY: Other victims have been giving details to the police of men connected to Goad who also abused them. For the Devon and Cornwall force, this has proved problematic. John Livingstone, one of the detectives involved in the Goad investigation, says some of the allegations go back a long away, and details are vague.
LIVINGSTONE: During our investigation, we got given very sparse details about other males that were involved, and usually not enough to investigate those names, because they use just a first name or a job title that they’d have done, so we don’t have a list of what network he might have. What we do know is that, on many occasions, a lot of the victims have mentioned times when they’ve been taken away, they’ve been abused by various males at the same time under the instruction of Goad, sometimes involving Goad. We got the impression when we were doing the investigation that it’s just a network that Goad had. How big it was or how far into the community it went, we couldn’t say.
URRY: Do you get a sense of how widespread it is?
LIVINGSTONE: We are aware that Goad travelled regularly to places like Thailand. He would often take boys on holiday to America. There is some intelligence to say that he actually wanted to retire to America and start businesses up there, so what connections he’s got over there it would be impossible to say without further inquiries.
URRY: Are there further inquiries into this wider network?
LIVINGSTONE: Not that I’m aware of.
URRY: Why not?
LIVINGSTONE: All the intelligence we gathered from this will be put into our intelligence system and then it will be decided what is actually usable intelligence, because a lot of the stuff we get refers to people or places and to tie that all up it’s a logistical nightmare really to put together. We can go round the country if we know those victims and talk to them about offences that have happened here, however we wouldn’t have the facility to investigate anything further than that, and involving people from other areas, that would need to be a national thing.
URRY: Since the publicity surrounding Goad’s conviction last month, more are coming forward to speak about their experiences. They’ve begun to work together as a group with the help of an organisation called Phoenix Survivors, set up to support those who’ve been abused. It’s run by Shy Keenan, who rejects the idea that details given by victims are too insubstantial for police to follow up.
KEENAN: I don’t accept that the information has been vague, and I would say that there have been absolutely categorical names given for other individuals involved in this.
URRY: How many offenders have been named to you?
KEENAN: I wouldn’t want to go into that at this point in time, because they’re still talking to me, but we’re now into double figures.
URRY: That have been named?
KEENAN: Yes. I don’t believe that Devon and Cornwall Police have done all they can in this particular case. I do feel there is much more they could have done – and should still do.
URRY: What specifically are you saying they could do?
KEENAN: Well, for example, we want clearer answers about what happened to Mr Goad’s money, because we know that it didn’t just disappear, it’s been relocated, then it needs to be found. Secondly, we feel that there were other people obviously connected to Goad and his activities and those people need to be looked into and properly investigated. The fact is that many of these men are mentioning the same names and giving up similar information, and they don’t know each other, so they certainly have valuable information, and I am not finding it difficult to understand it, and I don’t find it vague. I can clearly connect the dots and see what’s happening here. This is an argument about funding as far as the police are concerned.
URRY: Devon and Cornwall police say they have followed up allegations made during the course of the Goad investigation, but were unable to bring anyone else before the courts. Instead, Goad was charged with committing offences with others unknown. The officers involved in the case were praised by the judge for the quality of their work. But the victims’ concern centres on how much effort and resources the force is now putting in to identifying and catching others in the network. The Detective Chief Inspector who ran the Goad inquiry, Michele Slevin, insists they are doing their best.
It’s clear, isn’t it, that there were other men who were abusing boys, who were associating with Goad? What is happening in terms of investigating those matters?
SLEVIN: Where we have names, obviously we will look to try and identify exactly where they are at the moment and inquiries will always be ongoing to identify whether or not we can prove the offences that have been alleged, and whether or not, and ensure that no further offences are being committed.
URRY: So that matter is now being investigated, is it?
SLEVIN: Yes. Any allegations that had come up throughout the investigation, any statements that have been made, inquiries will be ongoing.
URRY: But you have been given names of other offenders, haven’t you? And some of them are said to be in your force area.
SLEVIN: Certainly the checks and intelligence checks that we’ve made in relation to trying to locate those that have been identified by name haven’t identified that they are in this area at the moment, or there has been insufficient evidence to be able to take them to trial.
URRY: How many people are now working on the intelligence that you’ve gathered as a result of investigating Goad then?
SLEVIN: The intelligence has been ongoing throughout the investigation, and where we are at the moment is Goad has his own, if you like, intelligence record which will be continually checked to identify and link up any other associated offenders.
URRY: So how many people are working on that inquiry?
SLEVIN: We have an intelligence cell that works within Plymouth continuously.
URRY: But how many people are in that cell?
SLEVIN: Erm, it isn’t a dedicated cell for Goad. What they do is they identify all intelligence in relation to offences which are similar to this.
URRY: For Shy Keenan, who speaks for the victims of sexual abuse, this approach is too piecemeal. But she argues that it’s not untypical.
KEENAN: I would say that I’ve rarely come across a police officer that didn’t want to put a child molester in jail for doing what he’s doing. But I would say that the senior police officers, the police officers in charge of the budgets, do not put enough money aside for child protection, and I would argue that pretty much
KEENAN cont: throughout the UK. I don’t think Plymouth are peculiar or particular to this. I think they all do it. Not any of them have put enough money aside for child protection.
URRY: Are there other inquiries that you’ve come across, other police inquiries in which the notion of a wider network, some sense of a wider network has emerged, and yet very little police action is taken to follow that up?
KEENAN: Good lord, yes. Across the country, every single police force we’ve ever worked with have, we’ve been through very similar things with them. They do tend to deal with sex offenders in a very isolated and blinkered way, and I know that this is their policy so that it doesn’t cost as much.
URRY: Is it really policy or is it simply that they’re not configured to deal with it in that way?
KEENAN: I don’t agree. The rules, the information, the laws, everything is in place for them to be able to deal with it. Also, you know, there’s plenty of advice out there from lots of us for the victims of these networks. If they don’t choose to take it, there’s really not much we can do. But the fact is, if you leave these people to go on and on, you will end up with loads of cases like the Goad case. I mean, we’re talking about hundreds of victims. There really shouldn’t be an argument about whether or not we can afford to stop these people. We absolutely have to, because we can’t afford not to.
URRY: We wanted to ask the Association of Chief Police Officers about the questions raised by this programme, but no-one would be interviewed. A spokesman told us the chief officer who speaks on these issues wouldn’t comment because he wasn’t familiar enough with the individual cases. Those cases demonstrate that investigations aren’t getting to the perimeters of paedophile networks, or catching more offenders. It’s already difficult, costly and time-consuming police work. But critics argue that the government should make child abuse a formal national policing priority. For
Sara Swann, the government advisor, the system of child protection still has a lot of catching-up to do.
SWANN: One of the things that I would say is if we were half as clever at our networks as they are at their networks, we might be a lot more successful in safeguarding children. I think there’s a phenomenal amount of young people being harmed out there and being passed out around rings of men, and we don’t know, we just don’t know what’s going on.

Please note that victims of abuse may be triggered by reading this information. The Sanctuary for the Abused [A] has advice on how to prevent triggers.  National Association for People Abused in Childhood [B] has a freephone helpline and has links to local support groups. Other useful sites are One in Four [C]  and Havoca [D]. Useful post on Triggers [E]  from SurvivorsJustice [F] blog. Jim Hoppers pages on Mindfulness [G]  and Meditation [H] may be useful.


[1] BBC Radio 4 Nov 11 2004 File on 4  Transcript

[A] Sanctuary for the Abused


[C] One in Four

[D] Havoca

[E] SurvivorsJustice Triggers post

[F] SurvivorsJustice Blog

[G] Jim Hopper Mindfulness

[H] Jim Hopper Meditation

This is all written in good faith but if there is anything that needs to be corrected please email

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3 Responses to File on 4 “Paedophiles” Transcript 9th November 2004

  1. Pingback: File on 4 “Paedophiles” Transcript 9th November 2004 | cathyfox blog | fighting for the rights of childrens human rights

  2. Pingback: Raymond Colin Hawthorne. Nathan Oliver Eyre. Court of Appeal 19th April 2005 | cathyfox blog

  3. Pingback: Timeline of a Child Rapist 4 – William Alexander Goad | cathy fox blog

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